View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:04 pm



Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
 Don't panic when you see elevated reads... 
Author Message
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:14 pm
Posts: 426
Ok... I don't know what was used in the filter motor but neither do you.

I would like to get hold of it for further testing but I would bet you couldn't even send it through the mail without problems...

Reading well over 7000CPM


here is a quick timeline of events where this air filter did produce radioactive reads...

...and I followed the reads every day from the time it malfunctioned.





1) Super hot reading from this station. Facebook "a buzz" with theories that a release had happened.

2) NO evidence of a release from anywhere else in the region

So i contacted the operator.

Operator states he is getting major sustained readings from his unit. 6 to 7K cpm on his charts.

3) Operator changed his filter and readings went back to a believable reading.


4) 24 hours later reads climbing steadily for the fence again.

I advised the operator to remove the counter from the filter unit and record some base readings.


5) operator removed the counter from the filter unit

Viola! normal readings for the ENTIRE duration off the filter unit.


6) Operator purchases a new filter unit.

Reattaches the counter with no real spikes since


7) I inquire as to what happened to the old unit.


Operator said the units motor was noisy and could not keep a constant speed.


Obvious conclusion? Filter unit was radioactive due to a malfunctioning motor.





This is so obvious that it's not even debatable.


Hot read, changed the filter and it calmed down for a short wile and then hot reads again, remove counter from filter unit no hot read, no sign of counter malfunction before, during or after these extremely hot readings.

Filter unit was what the counter was reading at over 7 thousand counts per minuet.


This is simple high school science process of elimination type stuff.




oh and the reason you may not see any reads on a good unit is the design of the enclosure (and other metal parts) around these brushes and the fact that while whole the other materials pressed together with the hot materials to form these brushes will simply help to shield a read from a simple GM counter.

After the malfunction these materials were scattered all over the inside of this plastic unit and became obvious to the counter.



Maybe these motors are supposed to only use safe materials but who really knows what was used or where these materials came from.



AirSepTech wrote:
"If there was gamma and beta producing radioactive cobalt in the filter's electric motor components, they would surely make the geiger counter click before being "burnt off"?"

"The brushes in the dc motors in question are made of brass alloy, they will wear out in time and they are not radioactive. The magnets are a kind of metallic ceramic and are not radioactive. The bushes are a hard metal alloy containing minute quantities of cobalt 59 as a hardening agent and are not radioactive."

Millions of motors, generators, alternators, hardened/coated tools & tool steel, new and rebuilt for decades in the same locations would lead me to believe in a cesspool of radioactive fallout--not. Where is the proof?

How about your forced air furnace, pulling air across an electric motor? into your breathing air. Over and over
Same thing in the car as well?
Washer and dryer ? Mixers, blenders, grinders, blow dryers, ceiling fans,,,,and air filters?
Are these clicking high as well?

I suppose it could be just the 'holmes' brand, cheap china recycle no epa no give a damn kill us all imports.
That could be a slippery slope. And it will grow, as we pollute and recycle our resources.

EL&D has a point----the truth.
Mounting up a posse to fight the 'goliath' of death is easily undone with no truth or no proof.
'Readings are readings there is no debate', is the inverse of 'nothing is here, all is well, reactors are safe'

That is the goal after all, is it not? The truth?

_________________
LP / http://lamarsworldmall.com/weather

View my other posts here:
https://www.netc.com/bb/search.php?keyw ... mit=Search


netc.com (donate will ya?)...


Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:46 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:26 am
Posts: 63
Location: Oklahoma City Area
Wait just a minute. The Sky is NOT Falling!

Confirmation testing needs to be completed before this wild theory gets propagated any further.

There is no proof "a material" was detected. From my point of view there's a higher likelihood a glitch caused the outrageously high readings. Do you know that 8k CPM is 20 times higher than anything being detected in the USA right now? That includes the EPA sites that are ALWAYS higher than our small GM tube detectors. Heck, I seriously doubt all of my source materials put together would put out that high of a concentration of CPM. Seriously, 8K CPM is so HOT on that small of a GM tube. An equivalent reading on an EPA site would be nearly 100K!!! No way am I going to buy into that without confirmation testing.

Here's something to ponder. Suppose you have a line frequency of 60 Hz (standard US household 120v AC); with a full-wave rectifier, the output is a 120 Hz signal. That's 60+(pos) and 60-(neg) cycles across a bridge diode rectifier per second.
120 Hz x 60 seconds in a minute = 7200 <--- hmmmm ??? CPM ???
We are talking about a failing DC motor being run off of an AC current aren't we?
Makes more sense than the magic magnet theory.

_________________
MY TWO RADIATION MONITORING STATIONS IN EDMOND OKLAHOMA
Outside >> Air Filter,2nd Floor,GMC200, Indoor >> Window Sill,1st Floor,GMC300
SITE OWNERS CAN POST STATIONS HERE."User Control Panel"~"Profile"~"Edit Signature"


Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:54 pm
Profile

Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 8:12 pm
Posts: 66
+1

That was my next tack. Dirty signal from the power supply has caused similar problems for me…..also, moisture and/or dust film on hv components, or a dodgy GM anode resistor, in the geiger counter can cause (almost) believable looking spikes.

As an aside, my cheap blender fried tonight while I was working it harder than it was designed to work. I used the opportunity to check for rads. 4 geiger counters with different gm tubes (SBM 20, LND 7317, SBT 10, LND 712) failed to detect an increase above normal background radiation.
However, there was a very high risk of localised dioxin containation. :roll:

_________________
My Station Location : http://www.netc.com/map5.php?ll=-43.1618524,147.07710599999996 - Tasmania, Australia.


Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:10 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:14 pm
Posts: 426
Sweet...

....a great opportunity to check something that "counts" and super advise about the other dangers in that unit!!!! You'all may be right about the power thing...

It's definitely something to look at. But you stated you got no added count from the blender. Did you check it while it was plugged in and engaged? If not, do the math on this unit as described by Lee971, do a quick test and post the results for us. Videoing the test would also be nice...

..If this is a power thing it will show in less than a second and will vary wildly with the push of the blender button!!! Hey you may can even get varied reads by going from the lowest setting to the high setting on the blender.



A perfect opportunity to test this possibility!!!!


If you tested it with it plugged in and engaged it only bolsters my point as the blender showed no increase. Keep testing and posting this kind of data (and other danger info)!!! This kind of stuff is what we need to get out there for everyone to know.


Were the crazy reads from the air filter unit real or false?

We simply can't guess our way to the answer.


Now we are getting somewhere!!!!!


Great post!



eatliesndie wrote:
+1

That was my next tack. Dirty signal from the power supply has caused similar problems for me…..also, moisture and/or dust film on hv components, or a dodgy GM anode resistor, in the geiger counter can cause (almost) believable looking spikes.

As an aside, my cheap blender fried tonight while I was working it harder than it was designed to work. I used the opportunity to check for rads. 4 geiger counters with different gm tubes (SBM 20, LND 7317, SBT 10, LND 712) failed to detect an increase above normal background radiation.
However, there was a very high risk of localised dioxin containation. :roll:

_________________
LP / http://lamarsworldmall.com/weather

View my other posts here:
https://www.netc.com/bb/search.php?keyw ... mit=Search


netc.com (donate will ya?)...


Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:03 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:14 pm
Posts: 426
Yes!!!

I agree with you that further testing needs to be done on this unit (scintillation) and I have requested more info on several occasions from a couple of different operators.

We need scintillation testing done on ANY unit that shows unexplained (crazy) abnormal readings like this.


I've even requested it from one person on several occasions (not the operator we are talking about with these reads) that has the equipment but simply has responded that it takes too long or won't be accurate.

A stunning response to a request for additional info...


As far as this unit goes, that is a sound avenue to explore and is a great starting point to prove or disprove this data!!!

It (the filter unit in question) still needs to be fully tested to know for sure, but I like where you are going with this...

ALL operators need a protocol to follow in the event of a "hot" read but we don't seen to have the support or suggestions (rules) in place for them at this time. So at this pace all the data on these very hot readings we are discussing will be a guess and that's simply not good policy for our operators or our data in general.


This kind of lack of support simply leaves the door open for anyone to "cry wolf" over a false reading or ignore (or be unaware of) a real problem!!!


I sent a message to the operator of this unit requesting more info and to find out if he has disposed of it.

Hope to hear back from him soon.

Meanwhile...

Here's the manuals for all Holmes air purifiers...

http://www.holmesproducts.com/service-a ... anual.html


And as a side note many of the units have a Ionizing feature.

This is a very important thing to note as these units could also cause false readings.


Great to know that there are educated people out there that read and respond to these problems!!!!!!!!!

Super post and I will be testing this idea soon...



Keep em (possibilities) coming!




Lee971 wrote:
Wait just a minute. The Sky is NOT Falling!

Confirmation testing needs to be completed before this wild theory gets propagated any further.

There is no proof "a material" was detected. From my point of view there's a higher likelihood a glitch caused the outrageously high readings. Do you know that 8k CPM is 20 times higher than anything being detected in the USA right now? That includes the EPA sites that are ALWAYS higher than our small GM tube detectors. Heck, I seriously doubt all of my source materials put together would put out that high of a concentration of CPM. Seriously, 8K CPM is so HOT on that small of a GM tube. An equivalent reading on an EPA site would be nearly 100K!!! No way am I going to buy into that without confirmation testing.

Here's something to ponder. Suppose you have a line frequency of 60 Hz (standard US household 120v AC); with a full-wave rectifier, the output is a 120 Hz signal. That's 60+(pos) and 60-(neg) cycles across a bridge diode rectifier per second.
120 Hz x 60 seconds in a minute = 7200 <--- hmmmm ??? CPM ???
We are talking about a failing DC motor being run off of an AC current aren't we?
Makes more sense than the magic magnet theory.

_________________
LP / http://lamarsworldmall.com/weather

View my other posts here:
https://www.netc.com/bb/search.php?keyw ... mit=Search


netc.com (donate will ya?)...


Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:01 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:14 pm
Posts: 426
And something I forgot to point out.

If it's a power thing why did the readings drop after a filter change?

Seems to me the new filter simply blocked the materials for a short time.

Especially if the new filter contained a carbon layer.

This would also account for the idea that it was a material and not electromagnetic as the read would have remained steady if it was electric interference.


So after some operation these materials contaminated the new "clean" filter and the reads began a slow assent back to the unbelievable.


Any thoughts?


Lee971 wrote:
Wait just a minute. The Sky is NOT Falling!

Confirmation testing needs to be completed before this wild theory gets propagated any further.

There is no proof "a material" was detected. From my point of view there's a higher likelihood a glitch caused the outrageously high readings. Do you know that 8k CPM is 20 times higher than anything being detected in the USA right now? That includes the EPA sites that are ALWAYS higher than our small GM tube detectors. Heck, I seriously doubt all of my source materials put together would put out that high of a concentration of CPM. Seriously, 8K CPM is so HOT on that small of a GM tube. An equivalent reading on an EPA site would be nearly 100K!!! No way am I going to buy into that without confirmation testing.

Here's something to ponder. Suppose you have a line frequency of 60 Hz (standard US household 120v AC); with a full-wave rectifier, the output is a 120 Hz signal. That's 60+(pos) and 60-(neg) cycles across a bridge diode rectifier per second.
120 Hz x 60 seconds in a minute = 7200 <--- hmmmm ??? CPM ???
We are talking about a failing DC motor being run off of an AC current aren't we?
Makes more sense than the magic magnet theory.

_________________
LP / http://lamarsworldmall.com/weather

View my other posts here:
https://www.netc.com/bb/search.php?keyw ... mit=Search


netc.com (donate will ya?)...


Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:17 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:26 am
Posts: 63
Location: Oklahoma City Area
I have plenty of thoughts but not enough time this AM. Work has my priority today. I know the ionization feature concerned me when I setup my station and I intentionally keep that off. As far as rising rates I think humidity among other factors could be a variable worth documenting. It may also be worth studying the design of the electronics in each of the components. There's a term I'm thinking of but escapes me at the moment. Something like circuit isolation or saturation. That may or may not make sense to someone out there so don't quote me on it, LOL. It's been too long since my days of building circuitry around IC's etc. for fun.

_________________
MY TWO RADIATION MONITORING STATIONS IN EDMOND OKLAHOMA
Outside >> Air Filter,2nd Floor,GMC200, Indoor >> Window Sill,1st Floor,GMC300
SITE OWNERS CAN POST STATIONS HERE."User Control Panel"~"Profile"~"Edit Signature"


Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:39 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:14 pm
Posts: 426
Great!!! Get back to me when you have the time...


Lee971 wrote:
I have plenty of thoughts but not enough time this AM. Work has my priority today. I know the ionization feature concerned me when I setup my station and I intentionally keep that off. As far as rising rates I think humidity among other factors could be a variable worth documenting. It may also be worth studying the design of the electronics in each of the components. There's a term I'm thinking of but escapes me at the moment. Something like circuit isolation or saturation. That may or may not make sense to someone out there so don't quote me on it, LOL. It's been too long since my days of building circuitry around IC's etc. for fun.

_________________
LP / http://lamarsworldmall.com/weather

View my other posts here:
https://www.netc.com/bb/search.php?keyw ... mit=Search


netc.com (donate will ya?)...


Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:52 am
Profile

Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:44 pm
Posts: 15
We can go round and round and get nowhere.
Is the motor in the path of the airflow? Upstream of the filter?
Could a hot particle get into that airflow? Get caught in the motor?
Could that be possible? Contaminated air flow?

The brushes are an alloy, but are mostly carbon.
If the brushes are contaminated at the source of manufacture, this will be widespread, more than likely. Common use of components and parts is widespread. Along with all the other parts and pieces.
A lot of units would need to be checked to prove this.
It is not only possible, it is the way it will be going forward, as fallout mixes and recycles and concentrates. In everything. Forever. No stopping it.

I have worked with analyzers for a very long time.
Teledyne, Siemans, Yokogawa, TigerOptics, GE, many others.
These are high dollar, $10-50k and up, some common maintenance parts are &10-15K .
They are calibrated weekly, some daily.
There is a reason---accuracy beyond question.

Too many questions here, we may be missing very simple explanations.


Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:28 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:14 pm
Posts: 426
Great to hear from you...

...we need all the help we can get to figure this one out!

The answer to your first question is YES...

...it can contaminate the filter "upstream" very quickly.

This indoor unit placed outdoors is subject the wind pressures from ANY opening in the unit, no matter how small and from most any direction!

Any air pressures (wind gusts?) coming into the output vent alone on this unit can flow small contaminates in the opposite direction, not to mention the other non filtered openings that exist in all of these indoor units. :-)

The brushes are suspect and what about this unit and it's origin...


...has anyone looked up any specs on these units?


And most of these things use a small motor easily overtaken by the wind...


Here's the owner manuals for all homes filter units.

http://www.holmesproducts.com/service-a ... anual.html



Let's all try to get to the bottom of this thing!!!

VERY important we all pull together and "duke it out" to find the truth...


...thanks for jumpin in on this discussion!


Contact me anytime...




AirSepTech wrote:
We can go round and round and get nowhere.
Is the motor in the path of the airflow? Upstream of the filter?
Could a hot particle get into that airflow? Get caught in the motor?
Could that be possible? Contaminated air flow?

The brushes are an alloy, but are mostly carbon.
If the brushes are contaminated at the source of manufacture, this will be widespread, more than likely. Common use of components and parts is widespread. Along with all the other parts and pieces.
A lot of units would need to be checked to prove this.
It is not only possible, it is the way it will be going forward, as fallout mixes and recycles and concentrates. In everything. Forever. No stopping it.

I have worked with analyzers for a very long time.
Teledyne, Siemans, Yokogawa, TigerOptics, GE, many others.
These are high dollar, $10-50k and up, some common maintenance parts are &10-15K .
They are calibrated weekly, some daily.
There is a reason---accuracy beyond question.

Too many questions here, we may be missing very simple explanations.

_________________
LP / http://lamarsworldmall.com/weather

View my other posts here:
https://www.netc.com/bb/search.php?keyw ... mit=Search


netc.com (donate will ya?)...


Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:42 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 20 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by STSoftware.