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 How do I know the readings I see are real? Help... 
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Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:40 pm
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Location: Illinois
I am not 100% convinced with the radioactive brushes theory either, but it did not happen to my unit so I can't confirm or deny.

The best way for us to verify our stattions readings for the members is with another private station located near us. As for confirming the readings for ourself, we need more than one geiger counter. While I have several geiger counters, I am greatful for the St. Charles Illinois station which often (not always) has radiation detection patterns (timeline) that match mine.

I wish more people cared enough to setup a unit.

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Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:39 pm
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This is all in good fun and education (mostly mine) so here goes...

Check out my take on your reads and let me know how off I am on this...

http://www.netc.com/chart/view.php?n=1%3AEB436E46


These reads look decent as there are only a couple of reads over 50. Not bad for a outdoor unit on a filter rig...

Failing filter unit maybe?


The first thing that stands out to me is the flat averages between April 15th and Dec 28th 2013.

Dollars to doughnuts the filter unit was not powered up during these times...


A quick jump on Dec. 31 2013 and the motor is operating again?


A 53 spike from wind on Jan. 12, 2015?


and another storm yesterday?

How bad did I do?

Let me know... :-)


Lee971 wrote:

There are several things that can go awry with these Geiger Counters. I've read of a failing GM tube in the GQ's showing runaway readings sporadically. Similarly, I once had a pancake sensor going out on my survey meter. The readings would go wildly out of control sporadically until I cycled the power. Took some time to diagnose and confirm the needed repair. But until I did it was quite unnerving. I've also experienced a software glitch some time back on my GM-300 which showed similar readings to the St. Charles station. After months of flawless operation I might add. Once we identified the issue the admin fixed the glitch and removed the false readings from my chart history.

In this case, since his spikes have stopped, I think more than likely it may have been caused by electromagnetic interference from the failing fan motor on his air filter. Especially if the motor was brushed vs. brush-less.

The reason I say that and that I do not buy into a contaminated magnet failure is simply this. If the magnets contained radioactive material the readings would be more consistent rather than spiking, and the GM tube would have been detecting the rads prior to a failure. Just like with the red glaze on fiesta-ware. The uranium releases radiation even though it is sealed in a glass like glaze. If the magnets contained a gamma or beta emitting source then the GM sensor should have detected it as soon as he setup his rig.

As for the outsourced materials in the air filter units. I agree that we don't know what they have in them. However I doubt any significant radiation emitting products would make it thru customs given the heightened security at our ports. When you say modifying the unit. I'm not sure what the St. Charles station had done but for mine and others I've seen the only modification was to cut away the plastic grate protecting the filter element so that my GM-200 could be placed up against the air filter. And though my setup is outside it's protected from wind and rain by being placed on an upstairs covered balcony inside a courtyard. So, even when we get blowing rain my equipment doesn't get wet.

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Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:01 am
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Location: Oklahoma City Area
I'm about to contradict a statement I made earlier but that was the time before I bought the airfilter and placed the detector outside the house, as spelled out in the description.

Rasberry PI - connected to GMC-200, attached to an air
filter, outdoors on 2nd floor balcony. 12-31-2013 01:10:00

As to the fluked data my GMC-300 experienced. I know the spikes on my chart were false and not real readings, So I asked to have them removed. Because I didn't want my long term chart to be drowned out by some fictitious spikes. But that's me. I know the difference between false and real readings and have the ability to confirm them.

As for your mysterious appearing disappearing radiation source theory. It doesn't hold water. How does a source emitting 8000+ CPM magically appear and disappear? If the materials in the air filter unit were radioactive they would have been detectable all along. They don't just turn themselves on and off.

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Outside >> Air Filter,2nd Floor,GMC200, Indoor >> Window Sill,1st Floor,GMC300
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Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:00 am
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This is too simple to be this hard to understand...


1) Super hot reading from this station. Facebook "a buzz" with theories that a release had happened.

2) NO evidence of a release from anywhere else in the region

So i contacted the operator.

Operator states he is getting major sustained readings from his unit. 6 to 7K cpm on his charts.

3) Operator changed his filter and readings went back to a believable reading.


4) 24 hours later reads climbing steadily for the fence again.

I advised the operator to remove the counter from the filter unit and record some base readings.


5) operator removed the counter from the filter unit

Viola! normal readings for the ENTIRE duration off the filter unit.


6) Operator purchases a new filter unit.

Reattaches the counter with no real spikes since


7) I inquire as to what happened to the old unit.


Operator said the units motor was noisy and could not keep a constant speed.


Obvious conclusion? Filter unit was radioactive due to a malfunctioning motor.



8) I asked the operator to test this old unit for isotopes or to send it to someone who could several times. I've heard nothing since on this VERY important testing.



This is so obvious that it's not even debatable.


Hot read, changed the filter and it calmed down for a short wile and then hot reads again, remove counter from filter unit no hot read, no sign of counter malfunction before, during or after these extremely hot readings.

Filter unit was what the counter was reading at over 7 thousand counts per minuet.


This is simple high school science process of elimination type stuff.


Do any of you ever test for actual isotopes or do you just assume that something is there when you hear a click...

You will find several types of radioactive materials in these common cheap electric motors.

So before you say my conclusion doesn't hold water take one apart and do a REAL (isotope) test for radiation.


And don't be so quick to dismiss something as important as this.

This is the way people learn (or don't learn) new things...





Lee971 wrote:
I'm about to contradict a statement I made earlier but that was the time before I bought the airfilter and placed the detector outside the house, as spelled out in the description.

Rasberry PI - connected to GMC-200, attached to an air
filter, outdoors on 2nd floor balcony. 12-31-2013 01:10:00

As to the fluked data my GMC-300 experienced. I know the spikes on my chart were false and not real readings, So I asked to have them removed. Because I didn't want my long term chart to be drowned out by some fictitious spikes. But that's me. I know the difference between false and real readings and have the ability to confirm them.

As for your mysterious appearing disappearing radiation source theory. It doesn't hold water. How does a source emitting 8000+ CPM magically appear and disappear? If the materials in the air filter unit were radioactive they would have been detectable all along. They don't just turn themselves on and off.

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Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:54 am
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Here's the simplest test to confirm or discount if radiation is present. Place the Geiger back on the failed air filter with the air filter unit unplugged from power. If readings return to 8k then radiation may in fact be present. Next step verify with his other Geiger. If it's confirmed send it to the EPA or a college with a nuclear engineering program.
I still say that you're not going to have radioactive gamma or beta emitters trapped in a magnet that are undetectable until the magnet starts to disintegrate. Hence the Fiesta ware reference.

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MY TWO RADIATION MONITORING STATIONS IN EDMOND OKLAHOMA
Outside >> Air Filter,2nd Floor,GMC200, Indoor >> Window Sill,1st Floor,GMC300
SITE OWNERS CAN POST STATIONS HERE."User Control Panel"~"Profile"~"Edit Signature"


Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:23 pm
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OK??? If you don't think the filter unit is responsible then where did this material come from?

Why was it ONLY detected when in proximity to the motor components after a obvious malfunction?


Why would it die off after a filter change and reappear after a short while?


Why would the counter show totally normal reads after being moved away from the unit itself?


Why were there no indications of a release anywhere else?


Why has there been no abnormal readings using the same counter on a new filter unit?


And finally Why would you need to perform another simple GM test on a unit that was testing with a GM in the first place and has already recorded the results for days plainly visible in this stations charts? Are you saying that electricity bumps readings like this?


I am really interested to hear a alternate plausible (and believable) explanation for the obvious data we already have.

How much is enough? How much data do you need to recognize a real problem?


But hey, write me back with a better explanation. Who knows maybe you'll come up with something that actually fits the scenario we already have the data for.

Can't even imagine what you can come up with to show it wasn't the filter unit as this is the source, without doubt, according to the GM that was attached to the unit itself for testing in the first place.

We already have days of recorded data proving that this was the filter unit releasing rad materials into the surrounding environment.

Or did the tooth fairy put it there...


I'm afraid in this game waiting around for another test and playing around with a already proven super hot source is going to make you come up short. This is the exact reason I started this post, to try to help all of us avoid possible radiation sources in our daily lives....


Healthy debate is good but dismissing something before even studying the prob is, well you know...

Lee971 wrote:
Here's the simplest test to confirm or discount if radiation is present. Place the Geiger back on the failed air filter with the air filter unit unplugged from power. If readings return to 8k then radiation may in fact be present. Next step verify with his other Geiger. If it's confirmed send it to the EPA or a college with a nuclear engineering program.
I still say that you're not going to have radioactive gamma or beta emitters trapped in a magnet that are undetectable until the magnet starts to disintegrate. Hence the Fiesta ware reference.

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Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:15 pm
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Wait just a minute. The Sky is NOT Falling!

Confirmation testing needs to be completed before this wild theory gets propagated any further.

There is no proof "a material" was detected. From my point of view there's a higher likelihood a glitch caused the outrageously high readings. Do you know that 8k CPM is 20 times higher than anything being detected in the USA right now? That includes the EPA sites that are ALWAYS higher than our small GM tube detectors. Heck, I seriously doubt all of my source materials put together would put out that high of a concentration of CPM. Seriously, 8K CPM is so HOT on that small of a GM tube. An equivalent reading on an EPA site would be nearly 100K!!! No way am I going to buy into that without confirmation testing.

Here's something to ponder. Suppose you have a line frequency of 60 Hz (standard US household 120v AC); with a full-wave rectifier, the output is a 120 Hz signal. That's 60+(pos) and 60-(neg) cycles across a bridge diode rectifier per second.
120 Hz x 60 seconds in a minute = 7200 <--- hmmmm ??? CPM ???
We are talking about a failing DC motor being run off of an AC current aren't we?
Makes more sense than the magic magnet theory.

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MY TWO RADIATION MONITORING STATIONS IN EDMOND OKLAHOMA
Outside >> Air Filter,2nd Floor,GMC200, Indoor >> Window Sill,1st Floor,GMC300
SITE OWNERS CAN POST STATIONS HERE."User Control Panel"~"Profile"~"Edit Signature"


Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:43 pm
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Reposted...


And something I forgot to point out.

If it's a power thing why did the readings drop after a filter change?

Seems to me the new filter simply blocked the materials for a short time.

Especially if the new filter contained a carbon layer.

This would also account for the idea that it was a material and not electromagnetic as the read would have remained steady if it was electric interference.


So after some operation these materials contaminated the new "clean" filter and the reads began a slow assent back to the unbelievable.


Any thoughts?


Lee971 wrote:
Wait just a minute. The Sky is NOT Falling!

Confirmation testing needs to be completed before this wild theory gets propagated any further.

There is no proof "a material" was detected. From my point of view there's a higher likelihood a glitch caused the outrageously high readings. Do you know that 8k CPM is 20 times higher than anything being detected in the USA right now? That includes the EPA sites that are ALWAYS higher than our small GM tube detectors. Heck, I seriously doubt all of my source materials put together would put out that high of a concentration of CPM. Seriously, 8K CPM is so HOT on that small of a GM tube. An equivalent reading on an EPA site would be nearly 100K!!! No way am I going to buy into that without confirmation testing.

Here's something to ponder. Suppose you have a line frequency of 60 Hz (standard US household 120v AC); with a full-wave rectifier, the output is a 120 Hz signal. That's 60+(pos) and 60-(neg) cycles across a bridge diode rectifier per second.
120 Hz x 60 seconds in a minute = 7200 <--- hmmmm ??? CPM ???
We are talking about a failing DC motor being run off of an AC current aren't we?
Makes more sense than the magic magnet theory.

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Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:19 am
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Moral of the story???

These are the problems we all face in detecting these things.

We have to debate it out and play "Science Ball" to find the truth...

The simplest explanation is most always true...

And if you need to do something you might as well have fun at it...

He He He... :-)

http://youtu.be/uAcJFCehEVE

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Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:09 pm
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For the record, the motor assembly did indeed fail. The motor speed did not operate at a constant rpm, it was varying and at times noisy with a ticking sound. I suspect a bearing or bushing failed causing the motor fan to be partially binding against something causing speed variations.

Regards, Paul

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Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:13 am
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